Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1992 18:08:13 CST
From: ENGDL%MIZZOU1.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu
Subject: Re: Kilroy is still here.
I noticed Kilroy on the TIME cover and liked the touch of history. Who better
than Ross? Would Gore have worked as Kilroy? Marrou? Bush?
To all ADS-Listees and -Listers:
Some time ago someone wondered "out loud" whether anyone was making copies
of our ADS-L pearls for Allan Metcalf. I spoke with him on the phone yesterday
and he hadn't heard from anyone regarding the proposal (not even from me). He
thought it would be a good idea for someone to systematically send him print-
outs, for archival purposes if for no immediately practical reason.
Natalie, do you have a master file, or do our pearly words evanesce? Maybe
someone will volunteer (you notice I haven't done so). DMLance, U of MO
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1992 21:55:30 CST
From: "Natalie Maynor"
Subject: Re: Kilroy is still here.
> Natalie, do you have a master file, or do our pearly words evanesce? Maybe
> someone will volunteer (you notice I haven't done so). DMLance, U of MO
Alas, our pearly words so far have evanesced unless somebody has been keeping
copies. I haven't been. If nobody else volunteers, I'll start keeping them
now.
--Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1992 14:42:54 CST
From: ENGDL%MIZZOU1.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu
Subject: Re: the
Please, not snottiness. It's snootines.
When I go to Haden House, I might say "I'll have the brisket" or "I'll have
the Cornish game hen" but probably not "I'll have the barbecued chicken."
At Katy Station I might say "I'll have the steamed vegetable plate" but not
"I'll have the KC strip." I think there's a tendency for one to use the
definite article with specialty items in any restaurant. I think at one
specific time I very likely said "I'll have the McLean."
The snooty places give specialty names to all dishes so that they're singled
out. I don't feel that the definiteness is directed toward ME.
DMLance, U of MO
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1992 11:05:55 CST
From: "(Dennis Baron)"
Subject: so don't I; not
I just came across the following usage note in Scott & Denny,
*ELementary English Composition* (Boston: Allyn and Bacon, 1906),
p. 254. It suggests an early analogue of *so don't I* and post-
sentential not, and an early controversy over the issue that I
was unaware of:
*I don't think.* A prejudice has arisen against this harmless form
of speech because of its misuse in such sentences as, "I shan't go
to town to-day, I don't think." It is also used ironically in the
slang expression, "Oh, he's all right, I don't think." But such
expressions as "I don't think I shall go to town," "I don't think
he is all right," are unobjectionable.
---
Dennis
Dennis Baron (\ debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu
Dept. of English \'\ office: 217-333-2392
University of Illinois \'\ ________ fax: 217-333-4321
608 S. Wright St / '| ()_______)
Urbana IL 61801 \ '/ \~~~~~~ \
\ \~~~~~~ \
==). \_______\
(__) ()_______)
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 11:32:44 CST
From: "(Dennis Baron)"
Subject: I don't think, not
I was reading P.G. Wodehouse last night and came across the following
example of the slang "I don't think." It's from "Buried Treasure," in
the collection *The Crime Wave at Blandings* (NY: Book League of
America, 1937), pp. 197-98. Learning of his beloved Muriel's engagement
to another, Brancepeth says, "A nice surprise that was to spring on a
chap, was it not? A jolly way of saying `Welcome to Rumpling Hall,'
I don't think."
Mencken identifies this use of "I don't think" as slang in *The
American Language* 4e, p. 566, and in Supp. ii, 643; 645. It is
the kind of phrase, he says, that lasts but four or five years. The
reference does not occur in 3e, 2e, or 1e, so it was obviously in use
in the mid 1930s.
But it was evanescent slang, I don't think. In addition to the cite
from Scott and Denny I posted earlier (1906), I managed to turn up
the following letter from Fred Newton Scott in *Nation* 65 (1897):12--
Scott reports here that his students at Michigan had been taught earlier
that "I don't think" is always incorrect. He says, "Asked what is
wrong with the expression, they reply, in one unvarying formula: "If I
do think, I mustn't say I *don't* think." Scott connects this prejudice
to the slang "I don't think" as in "He will get there, I don't think,"
which he notes is sometimes abbreviated "I.d.t.", and with the
"ungrammatical" use, as in "He isn't handsome, I don't think." It seems
that an attempt to make language logical also comes into play. All this
evidence suggests not only a thriving if limited use of "I don't think"
in the late 19th c., but also a division of usage into three strands:
unobjectionable, slang, and ungrammatical. The persistance of the usage
into the 1930s suggests it is not *evanescent* slang, and that it is
related to today's postsentential *not.* *So don't I* suggests the
"ungrammatical" *I don't think* is also idiomatic and of long enough
duration.
Dennis
Dennis Baron (\ debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu
Dept. of English \'\ office: 217-333-2392
University of Illinois \'\ ________ fax: 217-333-4321
608 S. Wright St / '| ()_______)
Urbana IL 61801 \ '/ \~~~~~~ \
\ \~~~~~~ \
==). \_______\
(__) ()_______)
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 09:53:16 MST
From: Daniel Brink
Subject: Re: I don't think, not
I have used the expression 'I don't think' quite regularly, and, until
now, blissfully unaware of the usage issue swirling around it. I would
say that I can only use it following an explicitly negative assertion
of opinion and not in the way used in two of Dennis' three examples;
thus, 'He's not very good at this task, I don't think', but not: *'He's
good at what he does, I don't think."
Thus, I find Dennis' literary example (Wodehouse) very odd (although
vaguely possible because of the irony involved), and 'But it was
evanescent slang, I don't think' as unacceptable, because the 'I don't
think' changes the sense from positive to negative, whereas the point
is that you are postposing 'I think' in structures like:
1 I think, he is not happy > He is not happy, I think
but getting it confused with neg raising:
2 I think, he is not happy > I don't think, he is happy
and producing a usage problem because of the double negative,
because the 'I don't think' of 2 gets postposed to the sub clause
He is not happy of 1.
I suspect that the sub clause of 1 must be used, even though 2 has
applied, because the sentence MUST be negative.
All this, of course, in MY dialect, not Wodehouse or others. But it is
not like the postposed 'not' of current popularity, I don't think.
=========================================
Daniel Brink, Professor of English
Arizona State University, Tempe 85287-0302
602/965-4182o 602/965-3168m 602/965-2012f
Internet: ATDXB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 10:27:56 CST
From: "(Dennis Baron)"
Subject: I don't think, not
Here's probably my last post on *I don't think*:
OED, s.v. *think*, III.9.b. labels this slang, "used after an ironical
statement, to indicate that the reverse is intended."
cites from Dickens (Pickwick) 1837: "You're a amiably-disposed young man,
sir, I don't think," resumed Mr. Weller, in a tone of moral reproof."
Other cites from 1853, 1857, 1911. OED2 does not have more recent
cites, though clearly the form persists in the ironic sense through
the 1930s.
Dennis
Dennis Baron (\ debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu
Dept. of English \'\ office: 217-333-2392
University of Illinois \'\ ________ fax: 217-333-4321
608 S. Wright St / '| ()_______)
Urbana IL 61801 \ '/ \~~~~~~ \
\ \~~~~~~ \
==). \_______\
(__) ()_______)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 20:18:00 EST
From: "James_C.Stalker"
Subject: I don't think, not
My son (15 years old) uses "I don't think so" with heavier stress than normal
on 'think' as an alternative to "not." In fact, "I don't think so" preceded
his use of "not" by at least a couple of years. I checked with him, and he
confirmed the usage, and that he still uses "I don't think so." Just today he
was Dominoes Pizza person was going to get here within the allotted 30
minutes. His comment was approximately this: "The Dominoes guy is going to get
her in two minutes? I don't think so! Not!" He used both.
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 09:35:00 CDT
From: Luanne von Schneidemesser
Subject: IPA font
I am starting a search for an IPA font to use
on DOS machines with a laser printer. Can any of you make
recommendations or offer opinions? Thanks.
Luanne von Schneidemesser
DARE
luannevons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]macc.wisc.edu
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 10:50:51 EST
From: Bill Kretzschmar
Subject: Re: IPA font
Luanne, You are welcome to our bit-mapped font sets from the Atlas project (as
is anybody else). Installation may be a problem, though, depending on the
word-processor or other program you use to do the printing. The fonts are
arranged in a binary file that can be downloaded to a laser printer (we use
HP LaserJet II and III) by the DOS copy command.
Bill Kretzschmar, UGA
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 10:35:30 MST
From: Daniel Brink
Subject: Re: IPA font
A possible solution to the IPA font request of a while ago is:
LaserIPM for Windows, which comes in either type I or TrueType
formats, both scalable. Their blurb says, in part: "Professional
quality, IPA fonts, TrueType (Windows), or Type I (Adobe TM),
includes manual, etc., etc. Producer: Linguist's Software,
PO Box 580 Edmonds, WA 98020-0580, 206/775-1130, 206/771-5911 (fax).
The basic package is about $100.00, but there are a number of
educational and site discounts, depending on your needs.
There is also a Mac version.
We are happy with this product.
=========================================
Daniel Brink, Professor of English
Arizona State University, Tempe 85287-0302
602/965-4182o 602/965-3168m 602/965-2012f
Internet: ATDXB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 11:09:11 MST
From: Daniel Brink
Subject: Re: IPA font
In my recent note on IPA fonts, I talked about a product call
LaserIPA, but I called it something else; it's LaserIPA. The
rest of the info in that note was correct, as far as I am
aware. Sorry for the confusion.
=========================================
Daniel Brink, Professor of English
Arizona State University, Tempe 85287-0302
602/965-4182o 602/965-3168m 602/965-2012f
Internet: ATDXB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 10:34:18 EST
From: EJPHILL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ENGFAC.INDSTATE.EDU
Subject: ipa font
We have just ordered and hence don't know yet how well it works an
IPA software package from M.A.P. Systems, Inc., 18100 Upper Bay Road,
Suite 100, Houston, TX 77058. Fax 713-333-9579, phone 800-527-2851.
The highlight blurb says: "International Phonetic Alphaabet (1989)
software available! Versions of Lines, Boxes, Etc. for Word Perfect
5.1 and Type, See, & Print software for non-Word Perfect users are
provided phonetic character users with 146 characters and diacritics.
With the LBE version for WordPerfect, mix IPA characters with LBE's
Hebrew, Greek, Cyrillic, and Multilingual characters."
Good luck.
Betty Phillips, Indiana State U., Eng. Dept.
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 12:31:00 CDT
From: Beth Lee Simon
Subject: irish mail
is anyone familiar with an irish mail or irish mailcar? did you have one?
every drive or ride one? as of when? thanks, beth simon at DARE
blsimon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]macc.wisc.edu
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 15:15:00 EST
From: "James_C.Stalker"
Subject: irish mail
I had an irish mail in about 1946 or so. It was a pedal car type of vehicle,
longish, four wheels, two pedals toward the front which drove the rear wheels,
steering on the front wheels, basically a metal frame with a wooden seat. I
lived in Louisville, KY then and was a native of that city until 1958.
Is that enough or do you need more?
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 20:11:00 EST
From: "James_C.Stalker"
Subject: irish mail
As I recover my memory, through my muscles as well as my brain, I must retract
the pedal description. In fact, it was hand pumped with handlebars, which
drove the back wheels. My wife, upon reflection, remembers something called
an Irish wagon, but it was a vehicle large enough to carry two people,
somewhere between a riding lawn mower and a golf cart. It was also propelled
by pumping front handle bar type cranks. If my memory serves, I also used
Irish wagon as well as Irish mail for the child's vehicle that I rode.
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 17:36:55 CST
From: BADHMIM%ECNUXA.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu
Subject: Re: Re: mergers before /l/ in English dialects.
I didn't suggest looking at PEAS. I suggested looking at the atlas data. Most
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1992 09:18:00 EST
From: "Dennis.Preston" <22709MGR%MSU.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu>
Subject: Re: Re: mergers before /l/
Did many others (like me) get a message from Alice Faber which did not make it
past the first line?
Dennis Preston
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1992 22:12:00 EST
From: "James_C.Stalker"
Subject: Re: Re: mergers before /l/
yes
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 12:07:00 CDT
From: Luanne von Schneidemesser
Subject: messages
Dennis -
How did you know the cut-off message was from Alice Faber? Since all
FROM information is simply ads-l, if a person doesn't sign the message you
can't get back to them. Is anyone else frustrated by this?
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 15:27:00 EST
From: "Dennis.Preston" <22709MGR%MSU.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu>
Subject: messages
I get messages which (following FROM) give the name and address of the
original sender. This
automatic reply' is sent back to ADS-L as a result of its being identified in
the Reply-to' field of our operation here at MSU. Hence, I knew even a cut-off
message was from Alice Faber. I do understand, however, that not all systems
operate the same way and that it would be a very good idea for message senders
to identify themselves. Saying that, I am Dennis R. Preston, Linguistics MSU
(22709mgr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu.bitnet)
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 20:14:00 EST
From: "Dennis.Preston" <22709MGR%MSU.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu>
Subject: Re: messages
If our system is a mistake (which identifies the original sender but sends
answers automatically back to the forwarding group), I love the error. I can
extract the individual's address for a personal response or just return mail
to the group. I doubt if it is exclusively MSU's
error,' however, since mail from the LINGUIST network does not come that way.
(In short lower-level creatures are at work.)
Dennis Preston (22709mgr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu.bitnet)
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 14:58:53 CST
From: Natalie Maynor
Subject: Re: messages
> From: Luanne von Schneidemesser
>
> Dennis -
> How did you know the cut-off message was from Alice Faber? Since all
> FROM information is simply ads-l, if a person doesn't sign the message you
> can't get back to them. Is anyone else frustrated by this?
That's a problem with the mail program on your system. Most people see
the name of the sender in the "from" line.
--Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 19:30:14 CST
From: Natalie Maynor
Subject: Re: messages
> If our system is a mistake (which identifies the original sender but sends
> answers automatically back to the forwarding group), I love the error. I can
Mail leaves the listserv with the "from" line identifying the original
sender. If it's not there when the mail reaches you, it's because your
system lopped it off.
The "reply-to" line can be set by the listowner. The default setting (and
the best setting IMHO) is for the reply to go to the list.
> error,' however, since mail from the LINGUIST network does not come that way.
LINGUIST is moderated. Instead of being distributed automatically, the
postings are sent to the moderators, who compile them into bundles before
sending them out.
> (In short lower-level creatures are at work.)
ADS-L is somewhat unusual in having a dog as co-owner. As far as I know,
only one other e-mail list has such an honor -- same co-owner, in fact:
Bernard Chien Perro.
--Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 20:00:00 CDT
From: Beth Lee Simon
Subject: please give your address or name or SOMETHING
My from line tels me the message is from the ADS list. I ask about something
over the list, I receive an unsigned response, and then when I send a
message asking who sent the response, and I need to know because I'm usu
inquiring with an eye to region or soc, or preference or something the
address would tell me, THEN i get THREE unsigned responses.
please, sing.
imean sign.
thanks, grumpily yours, blsimon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]macc.wisc.edu
beth simon
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 21:09:10 CST
From: Salikoko Mufwene
Subject: Re: messages
You didn't sign your name but I could tell from the identification
information that the originator of this message is Luanne von
Schneidermesser. It all may depend on the kind of machine/system used on
your network.
Mufwene.
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1992 08:46:42 -0500
From: "David Bergdahl (614) 592-1617"
Subject: LOST MESSAGES
I've noticed on our system that when the end of a message is cropped off
that if I use the "RECEIVE" command to place it in a notebook, and then
open it with Xedit, that the full file exists even though the reader
registers "********End of file*********" If you're losing signature
lines because of this, try saving the file.
David Bergdahl Ohio University/Athens "Gateway to West Virginia"
BERGDAHL at OUACCVMB